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WHo asked if STV's blow over..........

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Yep, they will all go over. I seen two STV's blow over in Jasper, one in '94, the other one in '99.

Both had that deck, but the driver was strapped in.......and the boats had flotation.

I am wondering if the boat in question had flotation? I know the seatbelts and flotation dont add THAT much weight to a hull like that.

I have seen that setup work and it is a LOT better than getting tossed out and taking a big risk of the boat hitting you.

Anyway, my hat is off to the guy kerashed and all who run that fast in a STV or anything else on the water.

ER cool.gif

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Yep, they will all go over. I seen two STV's blow over in Jasper, one in '94, the other one in '99.

Both had that deck, but the driver was strapped in.......and the boats had flotation.

I am wondering if the boat in question had flotation? I know the seatbelts and flotation dont add THAT much weight to a hull like that.

I have seen that setup work and it is a LOT better than getting tossed out and taking a big risk of the boat hitting you.

Anyway, my hat is off to the guy kerashed and all who run that fast in a STV or anything else on the water.

ER  cool.gif

STV's can blow over, but I personally would rather try big numbers in a stv than any other hull. IMHO, they run a lot flatter and are more stable than other comprable boats. Maybe that is why the only boats that went over 130mph were stv's despite 60-80 boats... none of which seemed particular slow.

As for the floatation and being strapped in- the boat did not have floatation that I could find and i assisted in getting it out of the water after the accident. personally, I do not agree with being strapped in unless you are in a capsule. Having seen the accident happen, and looking back over the pics on S&f, had Hank not been thrown from the boat and out of its way, I am not sure he would have fared as well as he did.

fish

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Prayer's for Hank's full recovery.

The big question, is why it blew over? From the pictures the hll looked like it was running a bit to high of trim angle. Was it possible head winds, cross winds, or maybe just trimed slightly too much?

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Prayer's for Hank's full recovery.

The big question, is why it blew over? From the pictures the hll looked like it was running a bit to high of trim angle. Was it possible head winds, cross winds, or maybe just trimed slightly too much?

There were periodic gusts that came along; not big blows, but a change in the wind. MD also mentioned that there was a spot on the river that got the boat loose (paraphrasing) and he could not get on it until he passed through this spot. maybe that is what got him, I guess Hank is the only one who really knows.

I do have a question that some of you might be able to answer though. Hanks boat was a ski bottom, and I beleive warren, michael, and dennis were all running modvp hulls (not 100% positive). All 3 looked really smooth and flat at 130++ speeds, Hanks was a little higher. Could the design of the ski be more apt to trap air at really big speeds? My apologies if this was an entirely stupid question, but I was just curious.

fish

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Fish, I am not a STV owner, got a LOT of buds with them though.

I always read there was little if any difference in the performance of the two bottoms except the MVP bottom slows down quicker and turns better. I guess that could be true, dont know for sure.

I do know from personal experience and just watching, the ski bottom seems to be a bit more "quirky".

I dont think 99.9% of the boaters would ever see any difference, just a guy going 138 mph might just be that .1% that does.

Just guessing here.

ER unsure.gif

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I agree with administrator, The one pic shows the bow high( I'm guessing thats its just before the blowover) the motor itself looks as if it is trimmed up pretty high. Defiantely not parallel with the boat. Kurt

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Just to settle the bottom point, Mr. Dixon ( Ya he deserves the "Mr" now ) has a faster boat than the one that ran 143 ( Casper ) and it has the ski bottom.

The mod-vp deck boat is more flighty than the rocket with the weight where it is normally put in a STV ( rear tank and battery ). They require a lot more work to get the balance correct, no STV should EVER run bow high!, if it does the setup is WAY WAY off!.

RT

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I don't know Hank but my best goes out to him. Now my $.02 worth dry.gif None of us know why this happened or what exactly Hank did, what I do see is that he is sort of high and if he taged the button on his Happy Gas (nos) at that hight you could have a large problem. I don't have any idea of how big a shoy he is running, but think of this, an instant 100+ HP with a nose high boat, trimed a little high will push the nose higher without a chance to correct. Again I don't know what happened and I wasn't there so this is all speculation on my part and only Hank can sort this out. Again Thank God he came out with just bumps and bruises

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If the last water pic is any indication of how it was running before the blo-over...plain and simple...it was trimmed Way to high.

Kurt G is correct...the motor is parrallel to water (where it should be) and the boat is trimmed out like a Mirage...

If the boat was that high due to a gust...the motor would be showing negative trim.

I am happy he is OK

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I am glad he is ok too, but I would say that balance at those speeds has more of an effect on the boat than anything. Trim is driver error, but if you haven't got the boat balanced even a great driver isn't going to bring it back once it starts getting away from you.

RT

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I will give some additional light.

Hank was running a speedmaster #4. 15:17 gearset and these have some carracteristics that some of you may not be aware of. It was designed for tunnel boats and the various conditions they run in. ie: they run at all types of crab and trim angles and feel real good even if things are not perfect. My boat with the 4 3/4" full size case HATES when the trim is wrong or the attitude is wrong. It also acts like a ski when the bow goes up too high and decreases speed. The speedmaster has very little drag and while handles great and is very forgiving in it's attitude, it has no wheelie bar effect and feels great almost all the time. I doubt Hank truely knew how high he was, it probably felt great to him. Stable and glued in, that is a speedmaster. I have driven them since I've was 16....add 26 years to that to bring us to the present. What happened to Hank is not a big surprise to me. I've seen it happen before and it will again..too bad it happened to him on that day.

My point is I'm going to give him the nod and say he wasn't that much in the wrong (boat attitude etc.) he most likely had no idea it was that close to the edge in the first place. The gearcase would NOT have told him that.

Randy

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I was there guys and watched this happen.I would agree that balance is the biggest issue here over trim allthough that had some play in the crash.The photo yal see with the nose high and the trim up may not be the second before the blow over.Hank made his first attempt by turning away from some spectator boats that where rite in the line of fire and let off way before the radar boat.He had a late start for that run and that pic may have been that first attempt while he was still acclerating.I spoke with Parker and we aggreed that the boats in the way had to be moved so I went down course and told them they had to move so the guys running at the radar had a strait shot from that spot to the radar boat.With that said Hanks second pass was so out of shape from the very begining of his pass that I'm suprised it didnt crash way befor that.It was 138 at the radar and had everyone there scared for his life.This boat was hopping and swurving around like a F-1 boat in a rough water race.He stayed in the throttle and the boat never actualy took a SET.It ran high and hopping violently the entire run.The third pass is when he crashed,it was the same and had me scared for his life from the second he took off for the pass.The boat did take a set at one point for a breif moment and then the nose started to climb and then over she went.After talking to Dixon and looking at the weight distrabution in that boat is is apperent why it road nose high and so out of shape.I'm not dissing Hank by this I'm only calling it like I seen it.Half the men and all of the wemon that saw his first pass where crying for fear that he would crash.Dennis and Dixon both ran as flat and smooth as can be.It was totaly a balance isssue.....Damn ,my fingers hurt after this one smile.giftongue.gif I hope I made sence

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Respectfully Rob,

I don't believe for a minute it was all a balance issue. Yes he was high, but my point is the speedmaster doesn't give you the signal that a big case (or xr6) gives you. His "wild" pass was due to this fact. I would imagine he WAS trying to find the right "set". I have gone over 143 many times (before freeze up) and at alot higher angle of attack than the video of Dixon's pass. Flat is NOT a requirement to go fast. Now granted he was way too high, my point is (as always on these forums) just cause it happened to this guy and that guy went this fast, doesn't mean for a minute that this is the way it always is. I plan on going 150 with a project Dave Bostic (Hoss Props) and I are presently working on. It is not that difficult, it takes horsepower, props that are neutral, and steady testing. I didn't have enough power to go faster last year, I do now. 2 seats up front, no nitrious, full shifting gearcase. This is not boasting, just the end result of hundreds of hours testing and refining. Most people on this forum have not the time or desire to strive for such a thing. But I believe any one of you could do it if you wanted.

Going back to the original topic of the wild ride, I would suspect Rob, you or I would have throttled back and tried to figure out what the hell the deal was. Hank didn't. I've seen this before too. Not picking on Hank but, in front of everybody there is a pressure to perform. I would imagine if the three of us were doing the runs alone he would have done things maybe different. In front of a crowd you want to do good so people naturally push harder and overlook the obvious. It is totally human nature. I have been there soooooo many times and did some dumb things, looking back, that I know I wouldn't have. In my old age and with my experience of going fast in a boat I do it rarely now, but we just started kart racing this year and I do mistakes all the time trying to be on top.

In closing, I feel for Hank and see stuff like this every year. There are lots of reasons WHY he crashed, but trust me it WILL happen again to someone else. It is inevitable. I did not mean for this to sound like a "bitch" session, my writing sounds like that sometimes(most of the time) unsure.gif . Most who know me will say I don't sound like this post could be taken. It is meant as information only and not to Pick on anyones opinion. I would imagine it took Rob's heart to pick up it's beat again when this happened. To put it into perspective here is a lttle story that happened in Oakmont, PA at the boat race in 2002.

J Ferrel was crewing with me at his first boat race. As a boat was going down the straight I tapped him on the shoulder a said "you get to see your first blow over today". He turned to see a tunnel driver procede to blow over a Seebold Tunnel. He freaked out a little to say the least. He was more shocked to see me just stand there and point it out.

The point of this story is what is shock and surprise to some is not that surprising to others. On another Forum a "certain" tunnel boat driver points out that he thinks we all should have capsules and that is the only way anyone should boat, period. I think he thinks all motorcyclists should be in capsules too. This guy, is out touch in my opinion. Have fun guys, don't let this deter you from driving the STV's and other hotboats to the limit. Just think about the handling and set up a little more and enjoy yourselves.

There are 2 types of tunnel boat drivers, ones who've blown over and ones who will. I doubt Hank will ever again for a long time. They are easy to fly but a bitch to land. I'll leave with that...

Randy

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Are you coming to the rumble? Not to call your bluff but I'm gonna have to see 145+ with a big gearcase and no nitrous. I'm one of those show me kinda people. I wouldn't doubt it if your setup was alot different than my white boat. She runs an xr-6 witha 32 and a stroker motor pushing it and she won't run 145. She only weighs 1100#s with me in it. My stroker has a minimum of 35 hp more than any of my other drags.(about 3 mph) My xr-6 is 5 to6 mph faster on top than my sportmaster so this mod your doing is making that up plus adding 10 more to the xr-6's speed? I'm not wanting to get in a pissing contest with anyone its just hard to believe that a gearcase and a prop will give you 20 mph(not even a #4) Come to the Rumble, if you show me 145+(with a big gearcase), I owe you dinner and drinks!!!!Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone. By the way Hanks boat had too much bow lift or either his cg was off. When running 135+ the boat at no time should try to lift because of the air going over the nose. When they show the video of the other run it'll be obvious. Thanks, Dixon

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Mike,

My whole post was not to get into a pissing contest and I don't think you intended it to be. The post also was not to question his CG.(I don't think a better CG would have totally saved him) The post was to point out there were lots of factors that lead to poor Hank's demise. The too much lift theory is much like the speedmaster deal I wrote about,(the speedmaster helped) but all are possibilities in the sum total.

On to the project at hand. It is very possible to run 145+ with a big case. I didn't have the horses to do it last summer and it took some doing to get to 140. The old motor was much like yours..345ish power. The little grenade that we have been working on now (Tommy Johnson's handy work) has pulled over 400hp many times during developement so I think that will help. I didn't say it would be just like bolting stuff on and driving it though. We plan on having a certified track with some real timing equipment this time. No crowds or boat wakes etc. I can't imagine going that fast (trying for 150)in a general spot like you guys did. I've done the 130-140mph boating afternoon in a situation like that but for the most part I really do this for fun and don't care what other people think about how fast I go. As far as the rumble goes, I doubt I'll go. I want to go to the Allison 50th and the STV rally would be fun.(and where the hell would we be able to go fast with all that around) Have to plan my summer a little and choose a few. I think it would be great to hang out with you(trade boats tongue.gif ?) and just BS. I will not take away from anything you did, but as you know there are many ways to get to the same goal.

Went back and re-read your post and would have to agree that the xr-6 is 5-6 faster than the sporty. My coned Titus case is exactly that too. My xr 6 case is not faster than the Titus case so far but things could change. Last year we ran a 28 hoss thru 1:75 gears 10400. This year I hope to run 10800 or add 1:62 gears or maybe more pitch..who knows. Never could get the 32 cleaver to run real good though. That's some of the difference in our approaches. I would very much like to meet and BS with you though.

We'll have to see how the schedule goes...

Randy

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Mike,

My whole post was not to get into a pissing contest and I don't think you intended it to be. The post also was not to question his CG.(I don't think a better CG would have totally saved him) The post was to point out there were lots of factors that lead to poor Hank's demise. The too much lift theory is much like the speedmaster deal I wrote about,(the speedmaster helped) but all are possibilities in the sum total.

On to the project at hand. It is very possible to run 145+ with a big case. I didn't have the horses to do it last summer and it took some doing to get to 140. The old motor was much like yours..345ish power. The little grenade that we have been working on now (Tommy Johnson's handy work) has pulled over 400hp many times during developement so I think that will help. I didn't say it would be just like bolting stuff on and driving it though. We plan on having a certified track with some real timing equipment this time. No crowds or boat wakes etc. I can't imagine going that fast (trying for 150)in a general spot like you guys did. I've done the 130-140mph boating afternoon in a situation like that but for the most part I really do this for fun and don't care what other people think about how fast I go. As far as the rumble goes, I doubt I'll go. I want to go to the Allison 50th and the STV rally would be fun.(and where the hell would we be able to go fast with all that around) Have to plan my summer a little and choose a few. I think it would be great to hang out with you(trade boats  tongue.gif ?) and just BS. I will not take away from anything you did, but as you know there are many ways to get to the same goal.

    Went back and re-read your post and would have to agree that the xr-6 is 5-6 faster than the sporty. My coned Titus case is exactly that too. My xr 6 case is not faster than the Titus case so far but things could change. Last year we ran a 28 hoss thru 1:75 gears 10400. This year I hope to run 10800 or add 1:62 gears or maybe more pitch..who knows. Never could get the 32 cleaver to run real good though. That's some of the difference in our approaches. I would very much like to meet and BS with you though.

We'll have to see how the schedule goes...

Randy

I'd like to talk with you also. If the gearcase and hoss combo run that good put me on the list for him to do an xr-6 with the same nosecone. The lesser diameter of the bullet would have to help. 50 hp of nitrous only helped me about 3 mph so it would be better to gain in setup rather that hp. There seems to be only a little gain out of a 2.5 and the strokers wont live in the high r's. The powerheads I run are pretty much what you see with the pro fuel boys in odba. I'd rather not run any more nos for fear of locking up at speed. I called Wally and the boat you run is a twin to Gregs in lay up with the exception of his having a glove box. When setting this boat up with a speedy I blew it out maybe 10 times in 2 hrs before getting setup close. It still gives plenty of warning but after it passes a certain point...theres no drag like a big case to slow it down and bring it back. The gearcase that Roarke said would be so dangerous was the #6 and I can see why after running the 4. We've got a rally here at Clarke's hill that'll be fun next month so whetther you bring the boat or not you should try to make it. Thanks, Dixon

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Excellenet read guys.... and all do respect also.

I am still not sure on the SSM gearcase stuff tho Randy...to me the seat of your pants can still tell you that the boat feels too high...and I would also account for things like where the horizon is and using it as reference to also being too high.

My experience tells me that when boat is too high, the C/G feels like it is on the transom instead of sitting right behind me in the boat and has nothing to do with even what the drive is telling me...its totally how the boat and its balance feels....now if you are saying that the C/G is going to feel spot-on with the SSM, then I would think the horizon could tell me something else...not discounting your experience here with the SSM... cause I have none and just would like to keep the discussion going cause this is a very good topic....THANKS Randy and Micheal smile.gif

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Anthony,

This next statement is not ANY disrespect to Hank or anybody that feels they are who I'm refering to. But...over the years I've had guys that have no feel or reference to the horizon. I'm not saying they can't but their "feel" is different from you or I. If you ever get to drive a speedmaster you'll find it "feels" quite nice, much better than any case you've ever run. Some guys have great seat of the pants...some do not and that is my point. Also the crowd pressure thing effects different people, well differently. So, in closing remenber what may be obvious to you or I may not be the case for everybody. I've learned to not expect anything from guys 'till I learn what driving style/feeling they have. Since I get to introduce so many new guys to the STV fold each year I see all sorts of drivers and their abilities and their ability to"feel".

Randy

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RANDY,

Excellent Comments... I understand completely... smile.gif

Yeah the crowd thing is too much for even me...My last two times out in front of the crowd...I nearly spun out , in a roundy race and the next time I blew a skeg...something was telling me to take a break for while....Well its been 3 years ...so I am ready again now biggrin.gif

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If a boat runs loose, I mean won't take a set then the setup is off. If it is flighty with neutral trim.... balance is off. From what I have see and heard that had both. Put a guy with brass balls and determination to be the fastest then you get bad results.

On the speemaster issue, while I agree with the lack of planing surface to act as a wheely bar, it is also non-racheting, so when you lift it creats a lot more drag than a ratcheting case. There is more drag on that prop ( which will force the bow down ) than there is on the bottom of a std. gearcse!.

RT

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BALANCE,

Lets talk about balance once again guys. I have heard many of you say that the hull was not balanced properly and this along with some over trim resulting in the blow over.

Now, are you saying the hull was not balanced properly due to onboard equipment, like fuel tank, NOS Tank etc.?

Is that what you mean about improper balance?

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Balance is the sum of everything. Driver included. (and I'm not talking his weight) laugh.gif Sometimes the little buttoms on the wheel don't get pushed at the proper time. more later, I have to get to work. B-rad keeps telling me to get his stuff done!!!

Randy

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Yes Balance...... Like Randy said the sum of all parts. Where you place the weight in the boat is as important as motor height, and props. Moving the battery 6 inches makes a big difference.

RT

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THANKS GUYS

I want to keep this going cause let me add a few comments. I am still a little confused on this whole balance issue so let me elaborate.

Personally I think the STV is one of the easiest boats to setup. Literally it has the entire layout done for you. The tank is fixed, there is battery mount, there is foot and dead foot mount and heck you dont even need to add a jack plate cause of the built in setback.

So looking at this photo, it looks like most of the components are where there are supposed to be. Even the NOS bottle is in the rear seat. I am also assuming the battery is located in front of the tank as I believe it is the standard location on the MVP 2 seat.

It looks like the boat uses a seatback and also looks like it had hydraulic steering(?). plus it has a fairly light motor?

Keeping in mind that the C/G of a tunnel is always dynamic. (always moving as acceleration and trim are added or decreased)and if the boat is flown flat in my opinion, why would the balance(C/G) be off? By what you guys are saying it sounds like this boat had too much weight hanging aft of where the C/G should be? When this boat is flown properly I am not sure why the C/G would not be located in such a place that would keep the boat stuck and not flighty?

Personally I am thinking the balance was off due to too much trim obviously locating the C/G near the transom or further back causing the Blo

Comments? THANKS

post-6-1110895570.jpg

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